Was Archer insane in UBW? What was his end game? It doesn't matter if Archer kills Shirou, since heroic spirits are outside the flow of time they are not affected by it, even if Archer kills Shirou, he will keep existing.
Was Archer insane in UBW? What was his end game? It doesn't matter if Archer kills Shirou...
He literally says this thoughbeit
UBW is the worst route
Nasou is aware it is bullshit, the characters know it is bullshit, but still did it anyway and presented it as deep
I know the bees would sting my dick but I still place my dick in the hive. Why? You just don't get it, man
He knows his plan probably won't work, but the fact is that he's DESPERATE. Killing Shirou to erase his own existence won't work, its 99.9% certain to fail. But that 0.01% chance is tempting as hell, because the alternative is that he is trapped in this miserable Counter Guardian grind literally forever.
Personally, I always interpreted Archer's plan as less a serious attempt to end his own existence and more a cry for help. He has plenty of opportunities to kill Shirou and he hesitates because thats not REALLY what he wants. He's like someone who makes a suicide attempt thats designed to fail more as a statement of misery than a plan of action.
Question: could Medea have released EMIYA from his contract with the world using Rule Breaker? That seems like a better plan than trying to paradox himself.
So how does it handle multiple versions of the same heroic spirit? If Shirou still fell for "get one-time-use power to save tiny micro-village for the price of eternal suffering" scam, but had a different moveset due to self-intercation, would the cycle of birthing new EMIYAs continue? Or would old version be erased and replaced with new EMIYA version?
Thats actually something the abridged series brings up and argues for: the UBW timeline Shirou CAN'T become Archer, because Archer himself already exists.
It doesn't matter if Shirou would be willing to make that deal or not to save lives. The World would not offer him the deal in the first place, because it already *has* counter guardian EMIYA that it can spawn infinitely often across timeliness. It has no need for two of the same guy.
UBW Shirou is on a different life path than Archer was on, because of Archer's existence. He's stronger because of their cross-contamination, he's made different choices, and he ultimately cannot meet the same face because Archer himself precludes that being a possible outcome simply by already existing.
Nope, she couldn't. The entire reason Archer is even in the Throne is because he's a Counter Guardian.
UBW is the worst route
Shit opinion
Shit thread, all of this is fucking explained if you read the fucking VN. He gets a once in an eternity situation to come face to face with the event that made his current predicament and says fuck it and later realize he was being a stupid edgelord and accepts everything.
The Archer that gets summoned is a mere copy of the one that's recorded in the Throne, who has a contract with humanity's collective will. Rule Breaker wouldn't be able to stab Alaya and wouldn't do anything to the summoned self except erase the contract he has with Rin.
He already got stabbed by Rule Breaker in UBW and nothing fucking happened. Rule Breaker doesn't pick and chose what it gets to nullify, its all or nothing. And as stated before, this Archer is only a copy, even the anime ending spells it out that whatever Archer does in FSN won't undo Throne of Heroes Emiya's fate.
Funny, I had this conversation in r/fatestaynight and they swore it only nullify target magic.
Rule Breaker nulifies magic contracts applied to something it stabs. It doesn't nulify all magic, otherwise it'd just kill any Servant it touched.
How does that whole copy thing even work? Is Archer conscious outside space time making copies of himself or did they just store his "data" somewhere to make clones off while letting his actual soul reincarnate or something?
No, that's probably not entirely true. The Throne is capable of storing different versions of the same Heroic Spirit. Having multiple versions of Emiya to choose from isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, all the Shirous have the potential to become another Archer. The chances are slim, but the possibility exists no matter what.
When a hero of substantial fame and deeds dies, they become recorded in the Throne of Heroes. Heroes recorded in the Throne are semi-Read Only, and whenever one is summoned as a Servant, a copy is formed. When that Servant dies, broad records of their deeds and experiences get sent back to the Throne.
What happens to the original hero's soul, though?
Like I said, they're recorded in the Throne. Generally, no alterations are allowed to be made once you're recorded, although there are a few exceptions.
By "recorded", do you mean they are stored there forever, unconscious and just used to make copies?
It's vague and inconsistent. It seems every Heroic Spirit experiences it differently.
More like different writers interpret it in different ways.
Pretty much. Consider that different classes of servant are all based on the same recorded hero, but molded into different forms and even different personalities because they are instantiated on different *parts of the story* of the hero's legend.
For an obvious example: Archer-Gilgamesh is young, hotheaded, asshole Gilgamesh from the start of his journey. He might be aware of what the rest of his legend entails in a general sense, but his personality is young-gil coded.
Caster Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is based on the Gilgamesh from the END of his story. The wise king that traveled the world and embraced the futility of seeking personal immortality.
Both are Gilgamesh, but they are very much different people and honestly if you put them side by side they probably wouldn't even get along. Both are spawned from the throne of heroes as heroic servants, but its hard to argue that either one of them is the 'real Gilgamesh'.
since heroic spirits are outside the flow of time they are not affected by it
What does that mean?
Nasuverse is a clusterfuck of alternate timelines, paradoxes, and pruned what-if timelines cut off from the rest of reality.
The Throne of Heroes is 'outside' of all of that. It's acasual. There are a billion timelines, but they all share ONE throne of heroes. This means that heroes recorded there are, depending on when you are in your world's history, from its past, present, or future. Because, again, there is only one Throne of Heroes that is being reached out to no matter from what timeline or what year you are.
Isn't he banking on Alaya being retarded and falling for the paradox bait?
It wouldn't be the first time the Earth fucks up this kind of shit, like with Ciel's immortality
I don't know how or why you haven't read the VN yet but basically heroic spirits exist independently of time. Their true existence is within the throne of heroes. What is summoned during the HGW is merely one instance. What happens to the instance does not affect the source. Killing the mortal version for that matter won't change a thing either.
Wait so how come Saber is in Avalon if she became a heroic spirit?
If it had a good chance to work, Archer would have killed Shirou immediately. He was obviously just venting.
It wouldn't be the first time the Earth fucks up this kind of shit, like with Ciel's immortality
what happened?
He knows, he's basically just using Shirou as a punching bag to vent out his frustrations.
Saber is a unique case, when she's summoned it's not creating a Heroic Spirit based on her legend but actually projecting the original person through time. That's why she remembers the events of the previous Holy Grail War and can't enter an invisible spirit form like the other Servants can.
She is technically send back and forth in time since her summoning is different, is not summoning a spirit is summoning a legend bigger then any of the others just looking at her stats.
gilgamesh attack class A, riding skills B
saber attack class A+, riding skills A
rider attack C, riding skills A+
No one gets close.
Archer retains his memories through a loop hole in Unlimited Blade Works when storing new weapons and updating his existing arsenal. Under normal circumstances, Counter Guardians are just autonomous robots that get deployed, do their shit, and go home without ever remembering anything on their next deployment. Archer's ability curses him with remembering all his Counter Guardian missions and THAT is why he wants out. He has endured untold amount of eternity being a zogbot in various untold possibilities where humanity is about to kill themselves and has done the Kiritsugu thing at larger scales than his old man could ever comprehend.
Artoria is the only unique case of remembering inbetween Holy Grail Wars/Summoning deployments because shes not done bleeding out in the forest in her living reality, shes still alive, there is no Throne of Heroes Artoria to copy from yet.
Ciel was Roa's previous incarnation. When Arcueid killed Ciel, Roa reincarnated into SHIKI.
After this point, for some reason the planet glitched out and incorrectly assumes that since Roa's soul is alive then Ciel must be alive as well. As long as Roa exists the planet automatically rolls back any damage Ciel sustains
All Servants are capable of retaining some manner of information from their previous summonings. It's just that the records are heavily disordered and the Throne exists outside of time, which means it's an extreme longshot whether a Servant will actually remember a given summoning or not. Even if they do retain information of a specific summoning, the amount of data they retain is inconsistent.
Avicebron, for instance, knows he killed his own Master who was a child. He doesn't actually remember the Holy Grail War this occurred in, nor does he remember his Master's face and name, but he does know it happened.
It all sounds like badly written bullshit to me.
That's retarded.
Nasu is retarded.
That's the fun part.
This. Being summoned to the fifth war is effectively torture for him because he's forced to watch his past self gleefully make all the mistakes he regrets in pursuit of Kiritsugu's ideal. It's also why he sacrifices himself for Shirou in HF: he wants to help a version of himself that throws away the ideal to protect a loved one.
I don't think that any of the assumptions fans of fate make and use to defend plot holes or explain hypothetical scenarios and actions and emotions, are ever valid as arguments.
If it didn't happen in the canon, schizo theorycrafting based on assumptions can never count as a possibility at all.
It's bullshit world building upon bullshit world building but it has waifus and husbandos for the fujos.
Fuck UBW!
Archer is Million Knives from the future not Shirou and Deen Stay Night is the only canon route.
shirou is so lame
why isn't he kiritsugu?
Not canon.
Urobuchi fixes this
He knows, and he hates it.
Long time question in the very first timeline where Shirou participated in grail war who was the original archer , that was summoned so before shirou become a counter guardian named "archer". UBW is the best route.
Self-satisfaction.
be rin
try to summon a hero without a catalyst
end up summoning grog, the neanderthal
eventually find out he's actually from the future in a world where neanderthals survived and homo sapiens went extinct
"small bones, no stop big rock" commented grog
noble phantasm is throwing rocks at people
somehow wins against gilgamesh, saber and berserker
"big rock always wins" reinforced grog
Long time question in the very first timeline where Shirou participated in grail war who was the original archer ,
Who was it then?